A Taste of Temperament | S.10 Ep.4

By now you’ve heard our hosts tell you that everyone has a natural temperament, come explore how your child’s may be influencing how they eat!

Transcript

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Mackenzie Johnson: 0:09

Welcome to The Science of Parenting podcast where we connect you with research based information that fits your family. We'll talk about the realities of being a parent and how research can help guide our parenting decisions. I'm Mackenzie Johnson, parent of two littles with their own quirks and I'm a parenting educator.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 0:26

And I'm Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt, a Professor of Human Nutrition, guest cohost and a mom to one sweet angel baby and one young insatiable eater.

Mackenzie Johnson: 0:34

We love it. So we are excited still having Lyndi here talking all about food, mostly.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 0:43

That's what I want to talk about.

Mackenzie Johnson: 0:45

You're like, I'd prefer that actually. Okay, we'll stick with food as the topic. But talking all about it this season, season two, feeding our kids and all this stuff. And now, last week, we were talking about practices. Before that, we talked about styles and the influences but last week, we learned about some of those practices like providing structure, supporting our kids' autonomy, and then the less helpful strategy of coercive control. What about this week?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 1:12

So this week, very excited. We are going to talk about temperament and food and how they mix, stir, scramble together.

Mackenzie Johnson: 1:21

Yep, I could really go on. I was like they could fold together. They could KitchenAid mixer together. Yes, yes. Yeah.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 1:29

Grill. I don't know, maybe not that.

Mackenzie Johnson: 1:31

I mean saute, whatever it is. But lots of good food puns, because temperament and food definitely overlap in our parenting. So we're really excited. And this is nice for me, because I'm like, yeah, temperament. Okay. I can contribute. I know some stuff.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 1:49

Yes, but I do want to provide a disclaimer, temperament is new to me. So I'm not as familiar with it. I am more familiar after I binged season three of temperament of The Science of Parenting podcast, and I loved it, obviously.

Mackenzie Johnson: 2:03

Well, good. Thanks. So yeah, a little shift in our dynamic this week. I mean, you're still gonna know, you know a lot. You always know a lot. Guys, don't worry. So we're gonna start off with a few definitions, you know that I like one. But we're gonna go with a few to see how these mixed together. So temperament. If you have been a listener for a long time, you maybe heard us talk all about it for 15 Yes, and now we're going to add another layer on to that, and episodes in season three, one stop. We also talked about it in season seven, where we talked about temperament and child development. But for today, in case this is your first time hearing us talk about it, let's talk about what temperament is, according to Mary Rothbart and colleagues. They define temperament as the physiological basis for individual differences in things like reactivity, self regulation, this could include motivation, ethic, activity and attention characteristics. In other words, temperament is kind of our general predisposition to how we react and interact with the world. It's a pattern of behavior over time. It's important to remember that it's inborn. Right, so even babies in the hospital have a temperament. We're born with temperament. It is genetic, it's passed down to us, and is with us from the very beginning of life. You can get more information all about it, in depth, like I said, in season three. But we know that for today, our understanding is that temperament is kind of at the foundation of who we are from the start. And then we get all these other layers of our environment and our personality and our family to build our unique self. But temperament is at the foundation from the beginning, it doesn't change. talk about adding in what we talked about in the last episode. So if you remember, hopefully listened to it, and you didn't skip over it. Otherwise, there's gonna be a lot of information for you here today. But according to Vaughn and colleagues, food parenting practices are defined as the intentional, so goal oriented, or unintentional behaviors and actions performed by a parent that influences their child's behaviors and actions. And the week before that, we talked about feeding styles, which are the broad approach that parents take to feed children and the emotional climate in which feeding occurs. So good parenting practices are those behaviors, actions, feeding styles are more of your attitudes and beliefs about how we feed your kid. Yes, so those are all the things we're talking about, right, style, general belief, I like that. That style is like your belief and attitude. Practices are those behaviors and actions. And then there's temperament. We're tossing that in this mix, fold, scramble, omelet. So as you think about that, you know, from your perspective, how do these fit together, like where do they overlap, as you think about temperament and food? Yeah, and being a little bit newer to temperament, how do you see the pieces fit together?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 5:03

Well, we're gonna go back to the first episode where we talked all about what influences what kids eat and the model that it was in. So we can start to put temperament, which is really at the individual, that first level, inner level, individual level, together with our feeding styles and practices, which is on the level outside of that at the family influence level.

Mackenzie Johnson: 5:27

Yeah, so those nesting dolls, like we talked about, like the concentric circles, that build on each other, that temperament is in the individual. And then the next layer, the next nesting doll out was the family. And it's gonna go kind of back and forth in there.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 5:45

Yeah, yep. So they have a bi-directional effect from the different level. So it's effecting in multiple ways, right? So if we think about it, your kiddos' temperament will obviously affect their eating behavior directly. So for example, how your child eats could be based on their temperament and how they respond to different types of parenting styles and parenting practice, or food parenting practices is going to be dependent on their temperament. But that we can also think about how, so that's the kind of obviously family level going into like arrow into the individual level, right? But we can also think about it indirectly, so your child's temperament so that an individual level, going back and influencing how you as a parent do your food parenting practices or your feeding styles.

Mackenzie Johnson: 6:42

Yes. Okay. So you said this earlier when we were put the episode together, it's like, the child is pointing their finger at the parent, right? Like, oh, it influences them. And the parent has pointed the finger back at the child. Oh, yes, yes, both directions with temperament and food. And then like that, it's direct. Temperament influences what kids eat and it influences what we choose to do as our food parenting practices, that temperament is influencing us. And you might remember us talking about that our kids' temperament influences us as parents too in previous episodes and previous seasons. It's here, too, right?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 7:20

Oh, yes. Yep. Yes, just like I'm sure the research with temperament shows, the research around feeding shows that parents of infants with a more difficult temperament are more likely to use food to calm their child. That's just one example. So it's really important for you to understand your child's temperament so that you then can in turn, observe how it affects your feeding style and your feeding practices.

Mackenzie Johnson: 7:45

Yes. And I even think this makes so much sense even like between siblings, or why I do something one way and why a friend or even why my sister does something different with her kids, because our individual child's temperament is influencing us in those practices and so we adapt. Yeah. And I think like, Okay, why was I this way with one and this way with another? Temperament. Temperament is here. Yes. And it was really interesting. So yeah, Lyndi, being with it, sent me some articles that she had found in some like food journals. One of them was called Appetite. A journal article called Appetite. Fascinating. But she sent me some journal articles from her world that talked about temperament. And some of them were like, oh, yeah, of course. But there was one thing, and we're going to talk about some of those studies as we go through the trades, but one thing that really jumped out at me, was this idea of our child's temperament impacts the effectiveness of the practices we use, right? So like, I am using this strategy. We talked about restriction, not such a helpful strategy, or I am really trying to engage my child in preparing food with me, right. That's another strategy. The effect and how well that works is impacted by my child's temperament. And that just like, blew my mind, I don't know why it should. But I was like, yeah, yeah, that doesn't work for me. Or this is less effective with my child, but it works super well for your child and like, yeah, temperament.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 9:22

Very reassuring as a parent, right. Like, of course, of course. This is different for my kid. So some of those studies that you mentioned, Holly Haycraft and Pharaoh. Some researchers found that certain strategies like involvement, food preparation, food choice, were not as effective when a child has temperament traits of lower sociability or high emotional intensity, which makes sense if a kid is in social roles. They might not want to be part of that food preparation, part of that more social activity or choosing things like that.

Mackenzie Johnson: 9:54

Yeah, that like introversion versus extraversion idea. A more introverted child is not well motivated necessarily by that time together doing that thing. That makes sense. Another 2010 study by Haycraft and colleagues found that a child's emotionality was correlated with less enjoyment in their food, with fussy eating, with more emotional over or under eating. And so that temperament playing a role in what they do. I think about as a parent, if I have a child who is more of a fussy eater, the strategies I might choose might be different than if I have a child that's a really adventurous, easygoing eater, right? And so we see how that temperament can influence what strategies we use and whether or not those strategies are effective. Right. Okay. And one more, right, we have one more here that I like.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 10:47

Rollins and colleagues in 2013 found that children who are high approach, and lower in inhibition have even more negative outcomes from parenting practices around food restriction.

Mackenzie Johnson: 10:59

Yes, and so that's like the worst, I don't wanna say worst case scenario, that sounds really bad, but they get like the worst outcomes of food restriction. Basically the study was finding that they were more likely to have more disordered eating styles, right?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 11:16

Yeah, so in the feeding style they did with I believe preschoolers, they restricted snacks from all the kids, but they found the kids who had high approach when that snack was reintroduced, were more likely then to overeat or overindulge.

Mackenzie Johnson: 11:30

Because like, oh, my gosh, I never get to have this.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 11:34

Exactly. Yeah.

Mackenzie Johnson: 11:35

And so that temperament? Yeah. I just thought that was really fascinating. And it just really reaffirmed yeah, the effectiveness of our strategies. Okay, yeah, you give this advice. You know, like Lori talks about temperament. If I wrote this book, and I told you these things, a lot of you would think I was a genius. And then you would have some children who don't fit the prototype because of their temperament. And so I think of that, this strategy and that strategy, and these, like, preparing food together? Well, if I have a child who isn't motivated by that social aspect, that's not a very effective strategy for them. And so I just think this is really reaffirming the whole idea of more than one way to raise great kids. We can both be practicing and authoritative, like feeding style and parenting style, and be using different like foods practices, more than one way.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 12:32

Yes. And I think to give yourself some grace, if your best friend's child is responding to food in a very different way than your child is responding to food. You're not doing anything wrong. I mean, you might be doing something wrong.

Mackenzie Johnson: 12:44

But that's not the only thing.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 12:47

It's not because you're doing something different from your as the other parent.

Mackenzie Johnson: 12:52

Mm, yeah, affirming that your knowledge of your child can guide the specific things you do and whether or not they align with the person next to you or the person across the street or whoever else? Yes. So we are going to dive in to some of the traits, which I'm always all about, I love to talk about the traits. So again, we're just kind of highlighting a few of those nine traits. We tend to use Thomas and Chess', kind of original nine, if you will. The research kind of morphs them together, the way they're studied can look a little different. But we're going to talk at kind of broad strokes about some, including sensitivity, approach, withdrawal, intensity, and rhythmicity. So, again, I'm gonna give you like the one liner of what it is. But there's like a whole episode back in season three, there's like one on sensitivity, one on intensity, one on rhythmicity. So you can go learn all about those. But really, which ones impact food and you know, Barb does such a good job reminding us to say that temperament is a gift. And you know, they're born with it. It's genetic. So if, right, so like I have one child who is irregular like me, and one child who is regular, like my co-parent, right? It's inborn, genetic, and it is a gift. It's going to come with some things that are real assets, and some things that feel a little more like liabilities or challenges. And so even when it comes to eating, we're gonna remember that they are gifted this temperament. And they're not changing it.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 14:24

No, nor should they have to, but we can adapt. Unless we are low adaptability and

Mackenzie Johnson: 14:31

then we will not. Oh, okay, so we're gonna start with sensitivity. This one I feel like I continually am learning so much more about sensitivity. Essentially, sensitivity is about how our brain and our body, how sensitive we are to our senses. And it could even be certain senses, right? So we can be highly sensitive to taste. Highly sensitive to sound, touch. I mean, I could list all five, right? But whether we are highly sensitive to it, like we're noticing, it really impacts our senses, or low sensitivity, which is where I tend to fall on that spectrum, not so in tune with those things, those things aren't always on my radar. And so, yeah, that's the trait of sensitivity. That's what it is. So how do you see this play out with kids and food?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 15:25

I mean, there's the obvious thing we've said it, food has so much to do with all of our senses, right? Taste, smell, touch, even sound to a degree. So it influences everything about our interactions with food.

Mackenzie Johnson: 15:39

Yeah, well, and I even think that idea of touch and food. My partner, my husband is much more highly sensitive to texture and taste. And yeah, I'm like, what? I guess I didn't notice, huh? I even remember when we were pretty early in our relationship, hinting like, oh, that was a really good bite. And I was like, what do you mean, that bite was a good bite. This is the general food experience, I don't know. But he was just very in tune, his senses really sensitized to pick up on that stuff. And that means for him, one of the things for him is like food texture, he doesn't like mushy, so like avocado. So I mean, really, he's missing out. But that's not my thing to judge, I guess. But avocado was mushy. And he's very sensitive to that, or like mushrooms are in the kind of the slimy category. And it's literally a difference in our body and brain and how it reacts to it. It's not that he's difficult and I'm easygoing. Our brain and our bodies are literally having a different experience, and how it works. So yeah, that doesn't really bother me. But I'm low sensitivity in those areas. So what does the literature tell us about this kind of sense, like sensitivity and how we can respond when our children are either high or low sensitivity?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 17:03

In general, you know, a very positive food parenting practice is to offer different sensory exposure to our kids to help get them to try new foods and eat different foods. So if your kiddo has a hard time with different sensitivities, they have a hard time when you introduce new food, you could just try doing things in a different way first, right? So research has found that visual exposure to unfamiliar vegetables, like using picture books, increases familiarity, willingness to try and vegetable intake in preschoolers. So you know, an opportunity to maybe just, okay, let's look at this first before we introduce it. And so maybe you won't be as weirded out. But again, that's very general to any sensitivity. So I think maybe even better strategy would be going back to that nutrition education, that nutrition knowledge, how do we improve that not even within our kids, but hopefully, this isn't overwhelming for parents, but you know, improving your own nutrition knowledge and ways specifically to prepare different foods for your kids. So, like your husband dislikes avocado, maybe we could put avocado in the blender with some other things. And yeah, it could just be a different way of tasting avocado or covering it with some chopped up nuts or something. So it's not quite that same texture. And at the end of the day, maybe they're not going to like that food, but you're trying.

Mackenzie Johnson: 18:38

Yes and I think that exposure, right? Like we talked about that repeated exposure to food, and you're gonna talk more about that. I know. You know, but I've been thinking about mushrooms, like the difference in like a sauteed mushroom versus like a grilled mushroom versus last night, I had a can of mushrooms, right? And I just like sauteed it a little bit, versus a fresh mushroom? Those are all very different things. And yeah, that we can use different versions of things to reintroduce. And yeah, for me, as a low sensitivity parent, I have to kind of validate and accept when my child, well, one in particular, being higher sensitivity that you're not just being difficult, right? It's the debate about, can you taste the onions in the thing? Why do you put the onions in, right? Like, well, you can't taste the onions in the mix of this. Why do you put the onions in? Their flavor. See, that's like that argument back and forth. And so for me, it's also about accepting, this is real for you. Even though it's not my experience, that's real for you. And so that's kind of a temperament strategy, but it does tie into that, how do we give them exposure? How do we offer that sensory exposure and the idea of books on food. That works with preschoolers, good to know.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 19:55

Yeah. Yeah, and maybe just changing. I think it's so important like you said just exploring and asking questions like, well, do you like food this way? Or do you like food that way? Like, again, I know, for my mom, she will not eat mushrooms if they're raw, but if they are cooked, she will tolerate them.

Mackenzie Johnson: 20:12

Yes. Right. And so it's different for different things. Okay, so our next trait is approach withdrawal. I love this one. I like this. So this one, our approach withdrawal level is really related to how we naturally respond to novelty or to something being new or for something for the first time. You know, so a lot of times we talk about in the context of like, okay, the first time we go somewhere new, the first time you meet somebody, things like that, how does your child or how do you tend to respond? Lori tells that story about all of them, her and her daughters all bumping into each other as they go to walk in the door, because they all try to let the other ones go first, because they are low approach. Versus I swing the door open and run in. Right? That's my high approach. But when we think about it with food, as a higher approach person that we might be more adventurous, right? The novelty, the newness is exciting or can be invigorating. Some people might call someone with high approach quick to jump in. And then low approach being less likely to want to try those foods and might fall into that category of picky.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 21:21

Yes, picky. I also wonder if high approach folks are more likely to get food poisoning because they're just willing to eat anything?

Mackenzie Johnson: 21:29

Oh, okay, that's interesting. Because at our house, my husband is the one who's like, this is fine, but he's low approach. And I'm high approach and I'm usually like, that's iffy. Maybe the extension person in me, maybe I'm the extension, like, I'm the exception, because I can hear our food and health colleagues be like food safety, food safety, four day throw away. Okay, so approach withdrawal. Let's talk about how this one plays out with kids and food.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 21:56

Yes, so high approach research has shown, those folks are more likely to enjoy food and be less fussy. That's great as a parent, right? You don't want your kids to be fussy. So those high approach kids, you're gonna have a little bit more luck with them experimenting or trying those new foods. But then on the other hand, there's also this high approach kids are also more likely to be overeaters or have a really negative response to restriction. So some strategies for those high approach kids would really be creating a structured but not restrictive food environment.

Mackenzie Johnson: 22:30

Hmm. Yes. So like, structure and that can be the routines, right? How we offer things and that they do come to expect that. That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, I think of the high approach, like, we're ready to go. I don't know. What? What do you mean, you're not sure? The weirdest thing on the menu is often what I prefer, like, what's going to have a variety of flavors, and my husband's like, can I get bland at these? So yeah, so I think that it's interesting to think about our high approach kids, and I'd never thought about it relating to how much we might eat, like, not just whether or not we will eat something new, but also high approach. Yeah, that swing the door open and run in, can relate to food and not taking maybe that time to slow down and listen to your body. That makes sense. So what about when someone's low approach or when like more withdrawing?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 23:27

So withdrawing, sorry, if your kid is withdrawing, unfortunately, I'm about to tell you, they're more likely to be a picky eater.

Mackenzie Johnson: 23:35

The tracks for me. That tracks.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 23:38

That's good to hear the science plays out in your household. So it's really important to be responsive to this kiddo. And again, offer those repeated exposures. We talked about this last time. The science shows that it can take up to 15 times or more. It's not, as you know, exact here, but it can take 15.

Mackenzie Johnson: 23:59

15 checkmarks of offering this food. Done.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 24:02

No, keep going. I mean, to your tolerance, but it can take up to 15 food introductions for your kid will try the new food. So this kid might, you know, thrive in those flavors to flavor learning. So pairing something they already really like with that food. And then they could also thrive in what we call flavor nutrient learning. So this is teaching them that you know, Oh, this food makes them feel full or this food is good for my heart or will help me run faster. Those kind of flavor nutrient learnings might be might be good for these kids.

Mackenzie Johnson: 24:43

Yeah, like the benefits of some of that. Yes, yes. Okay, so that is approach withdrawal. Got a few And it's their temperament. So don't get don't let it affect That makes sense. Well, and I think like I said with my own kids, the interesting dip combination that I'm like, I wouldn't have chosen that. Right. But it's a familiar dip strategies in there. Now we're going to talk about regularity, in a way that they like with a food that they maybe weren't so interested in. And yeah, my daughter, in particular, pasta also known as rhythmicity. So this essentially has to do with is a big deal in our house. I mean, we have three kinds that how much of a clock your body is. Does your body tend to operate on the same patterns of time? Whether that's when you're we eat most often with different sauces whether it's from a box or whatever. I like tortellini, that's like an indulgence. Tortellini. So yummy. My daughter hates it. She always asked me your pasta or my pasta, because she likes bowtie noodle. Right. And so that idea of, I'm like, Yeah, mentally, have we had it 15 times. Like, are we there? I gotta keep going. I'm gonna keep going because I like it. Right. Division of responsibility. I'm starving tortellini. But yeah, that is the selective, the I'm not so interested in this unfamiliar. And I even think like, the one bite rule, right or clean plate club or whatever. For a one bite rule for a high approach child is like, yeah, that worked great with my son. And then my low approach child is like no, ain't happening. Right? So that is just, that's their temperament. you and, you know, change the way you're going to feed them. hungry, when you go to the bathroom, all those kinds of things? So some people do, I'm like, yeah, there are people out there. I don't know who they are. Well, I do. They're just not me. People that are hungry at the same time every day. And some people who aren't. I am in the people who aren't, I'm in the irregular or less rhythm group, as is my daughter. And so sometimes that means, I mean, it can be an asset and that like, oh, yeah, we can flex, we're not super hungry, we'll eat a little later. We'll spend more time here at the park or wherever. But it also can mean that sometimes one of us might be hungry at an inconvenient time. Right. So that's kind of the liability of irregularity. But then my son when he came along, so with my daughter, yeah, even when she was pretty young, we could kind of go do and we'll just see, I don't know, might work out fine. With my son, it's like, no, he's hungry at this time. He could cry and I would know what time it was. Like when he was an infant and on maternity leave, or even after I was back at work, he would cry, like, three hours almost to the dot, like within 10 minutes. It blew my mind. He is so regular. And then once he started eating more solid food, I knew we needed to be having supper by like 5:30. Like, we were not

going to make it to 6: 27:58

00 or 6:30. There was none, that flexibility kind of went out the window on. He was very routine. So a schedule helped him eat. With my daughter we had routines but they weren't on a clock. And yeah, my husband falls in the routine category. So he's not mad that we're now in the 5:30

to 6: 28:16

00 eating time category everyday.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 28:19

Yes, yeah. And I think you point out something that makes it really hard. Because if you have different, different styles within your own family, in general, that makes it really difficult. But then having a non-routine in a very food that is a socially routine thing makes it really tricky, right? Like, how do you handle those kids? So that is really difficult.

Mackenzie Johnson: 28:46

Yeah. And so when we think about irregular and so yeah, I always like to remind people, a routine is like a pattern. It's not necessarily related to the clock, right? It's like a pattern of how we do things, first we set the table, then we this, then we this, versus the schedule. So knowing that those are two different tools, what would you say about feeding an irregular child?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 29:08

Yes, feeding an irregular child. Well, yeah, I mean, I think you said it best. Just because your child doesn't routine doesn't mean they can't create their own feeding routine or things like that. So that may mean you have to prioritize helping having them help you with meal planning, or you can always model positive eating behavior, even if it isn't at the table at the same time that everyone else is eating all the time or things like that.

Mackenzie Johnson: 29:33

Well, I even think with my highly regular son means not always but in general, we tend to eat in that timeframe

of like 5:30 to 6: 29:40

00 because he starts to fall apart. And I mean, he's not an infant anymore, but still starts to fall apart.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 29:47

My adult husband falls apart.

Mackenzie Johnson: 29:48

And then, but my daughter some days she's

ravenous by 5: 29:54

30 and some days, she eats exactly zero bites of supper at the table when we offer it. So one strategy we have for her is we are now at the point if she chooses not to eat or she only eats a little or whatever, we're not going to fight about it. Alright, the division of responsibility, but she sets her plate on the counter. So if she's hungry in 30 minutes, like that's when it strikes, okay, there's still supper, right? I'm still choosing what's offered, supper is what's offered. I'm not feeling picky about the time constraint. That's how I've adapted to that irregularity. And so yeah, it's like, okay, we could heat it up, we can put it in the fridge, we're willing to kind of redo it to some extent, but this is what's offered and you just don't have to eat it on this exact timetable.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 30:41

Yeah, yes. So yeah, what you're doing is what I would suggest to other parents who have a highly irregular child is, you know, maybe creating that food environment that helps support when they want to eat the food that you want them to eat. Right? So having the food readily accessible, it's available, it is there on the counter so that they get to eat when they choose to eat to a degree. I mean, you want some structure in there, but you're providing structure by creating a healthy food environment.

Mackenzie Johnson: 31:12

Well, even on weekends, I'm so irregular that it's like, oh, lunch? Not always, hence the irregularity. It depends. But even on the weekends that yeah, we might not eat consistently at the same time. Our routine is that my children know, we will be offered breakfast, we will be offered lunch, we will be offered a snack, we will be offered supper. And yeah, this weekend, it was like our snack

was ice cream at 4: 31:42

00 and supper at like 6:30. Right, we had to kind of tide my son over and some of that. But so we have the routine, but not always the schedule.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 31:53

Yes, yeah. And I think you still having structure, which is what you're talking about, is so important. Because you don't want to go to either extremes. You don't want to be so indulgent where you're just giving them whatever they want whenever they want it because we know that that leads to poor outcomes. But on the flip side, you don't want to pressure them or restrict them and say you need to sit at the table and you need to eat this when the rest of us are eating because we know how negative restriction and food pressure can be for them as well. Oh, that sounds wonderful. It sounds like a preferred way of

Mackenzie Johnson: 32:27

Well, and even my kids think snack lunch is the coolest thing of all time, which is essentially cleaning out the fridge and pantry. Like what is here. Okay. And then the only rule is we have to choose from different food groups, like we're finding some form of fruit or vegetable, like whether that's applesauce, whether that's raisins, whether that's grabbing a can of fruit, right? We're doing some form of that. And something that's going to help give you energy, right, like a protein, something that's going to hold to help you stay full. And that's just like, okay, whatever is here. It's basically clean out the fridge, but they think it's the coolest. eating for me often. Oh, okay. And then one more trait here is intensity. This one is my actual favorite. I think people sometimes refer to this trait as enthusiasm, exuberance, vigor, or sometimes even dramatic. I fall into that high intensity category. But it literally has to do with the difference in experience of how the brain fires, like an emotional response. Is it like pewpew? Or is it like a full explosion, right?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 33:33

Star Wars noises?

Mackenzie Johnson: 33:34

Exactly. It's that difference in our emotional response and emotional experience. I am highly intense, which I think like the heart monitor, like I would have big ups and big downs on that heart monitor. My husband is very mild, like low intensity. His is just steady little like, oh, sometimes there's bumps, but mostly kind of, I mean, flatlining. That has a bad connotation. But pretty even keeled. So that is intensity. Yeah, I think, oh, go ahead. Oh, I'm so excited to talk.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 34:07

You're intense. But this is an opportunity for me to apologize to my very intense brother, who we often misunderstood growing up that intensity was just his temperament. And so I'm sorry, Christopher, we all judged you for waking up being ready to go for the day, firing on all cylinders.

Mackenzie Johnson: 34:26

Well, there it was. And I do feel like intensity, when I think about it with food, is an interesting trait, because I think it kind of pairs up alongside things, right. So like, if a child is low approach, not super interested in something new, would have hesitation and they're highly intense. That can mean it's like a throwdown. Like I'm not trying it, I won't do it. Right versus if a child is more mild. And they have a little approach might be like, I don't like want to, no thanks. Right. And so we see intensity kind of come alongside sensitivity. You know, I even think of like persistence. Child is adamant. We didn't really talk about that one, but like, persistence being their commitment to a task, that follow through, how much frustration they can tolerate before they give up. And so yeah, highly intense and highly persistent is like, I will hold my ground, like we're throwing down. Versus if you're mild and low persistence, it's like, okay, well, I mean, I guess.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 35:25

Yeah. And so I think, especially with this temperament, you're going to find yourself really, maybe again, overcorrecting in a certain way, right? So if a kid is going to have that strong distaste and be really expressive for it for a food, you might be like, Okay, well, I give up, I'm going to give you whatever food you want, right, so turn into the indulgent feeding style. Or if you are a parent who wants to strongly control them, you're going to pressure them to eat or, you know, do again those restrictive behaviors. So I think being really, really aware of your high intensity child and how you are responding to them is really

Mackenzie Johnson: 36:08

And we often warn parents, our low intensity important. children need more attention for us to notice, right? So if I have one child making a huge fuss about something, right, our low emotional child also might not like it, or they also might have thoughts. But we might have to like draw that out of them a little bit more, because they can be so mild. But it is interesting, because one thing that you mentioned, like the authoritarian and trying to control. Lori also always mentions that around regularity, like eat, sleep, and poop. That's always what parents want to control about their child. And so yeah, if you have a highly irregular child, your instinct might be to move to that authoritarian like, no, I will control this, we will do this, it will work this way. And so we want to think about how do we have that balanced authoritative? How can we lean into that? Because we know their temperament is going to impact our style and our strategies. Right?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 37:11

Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And I think when we talk about intensity or any of the temperaments, another thing important to bring back is that idea of division of responsibility. So as you know, again, we as parents get to pick what they eat, where they eat, those kinds of things, and the kid gets to pick if they're going to eat and what they're going to eat of that.

Mackenzie Johnson: 37:35

So yes, and I love, love, love, love the division of responsibility. Because yeah, having been intense, and having two intense children, I'm like, I don't want to fight about it, and it's actually helpful if I don't, instead of me trying to force them into this. Okay, you can decide not to eat it. This is what we're having.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 37:55

Yeah and what you do is you just use those food parenting practices to try to reinforce the behaviors you want them to participate in, and then they choose if they're going to participate in those behaviors. So something I would offer as a strategy for this high intensity kiddo is they might need a little bit more structure. Not too much structure, but they might need just a little bit more structure. So they might need more fixed choices, like here are your two or three options you get to pick from so I know you're not going to eat this. So, you know, here's the second option. Or they might need some additional support or reinforcement when trying new foods. So this is where you maybe pull out a nonfood reward. So we don't ever really want to use food as a reward. We talked about this already. Then you're kind of categorizing as, oh, this food is good, this food is bad. What we want to try instead is using a non food reward. So like a sticker. So oh, you tried a new food? Here's a sticker for your sticker board or hopefully not to put on a wall or a door that will never come off.

Mackenzie Johnson: 38:57

Well, yeah, I even think of our positive reinforcement is also kind of a reward. You know, like, that's a non food reward of, I was so proud that you tried this new thing, right? That's a non food reward of connection. Kind of like that's totally one too.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 39:15

Oh, yeah. Yes. And maybe this high intensity kiddo is looking for that positive reinforcement and that love. Again, I'm sorry, Christopher.

Mackenzie Johnson: 39:24

We still love you. I'm so sorry. Oh, all right. Well, we talked about a lot of great strategies throughout the episode based on these specific traits. But one we always have to say when we're talking about temperament is this idea of anticipatory guidance. Essentially, because temperament is a pattern, you can see what's coming, right? If I have a low approach child, I can anticipate they will be a little bit resistant to something that is expected or they'll be hesitant, I should say, to something unexpected versus a high approach child, I can anticipate they can jump in with both feet pretty quickly. And so we can use that knowledge of that pattern to anticipate, but then choose our strategies accordingly. Right, we can guide their behavior because okay, I know they might not be so interested in this. So I'm going to make sure that I do offer a familiar food as a side with this new main dish we've never had before. But we can anticipate and accommodate accordingly with our parenting.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 40:23

Exactly, yes, yes. Ditto. Just everything we said today.

Mackenzie Johnson: 40:29

Basically, all the strategies you gave today were anticipatory guidance. Awesome. Well, this brings us to our Stop. Breathe. Talk. section. We're gonna bring in our producer, Mackenzie DeJong. She's gonna ask us an off the cuff question about temperament and food and kids. Let's hear it.

Mackenzie DeJong: 40:49

All right. So, you know, when we talk about temperament and what I've heard, so maybe I'm just choosing to hear it this way, but I'm hearing a lot of recommendations for our younger kid. So I'm hearing a lot of like, and again, maybe I'm choosing to hear it this way. But like, things that we might think of with our younger kids and trying foods and all of this, I would love, and I know we will have an episode on school agers and food, teens and food. But I'd love to focus on teens, preteens, older school agers and food and temperament, especially, and this might be a personal takeaway, around sensitivity, withdrawing, kids. You use the word picky eaters with both of those, which we also will talk about, but on temperament, do you have any tips specific for parents of kids who are coming into this late? Like, oh, I'm too late. I didn't do any of this for my kids when they were little. They're preteens and teens now, and their temperament is what it is. Do you have any tips, tricks, advice around that? Or, again, especially like sensitivity withdrawing?

Mackenzie Johnson: 42:08

I love that question. Because you're right. So many of our examples were like young kids.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 42:14

Yes. As two parents of young children, that is always where my mind goes.

Mackenzie Johnson: 42:19

XXXWell, I'll say one thing that comes to mind is their temperament holds out, temperament stays the same. So whether you learned about temperament when your child was one, whether you learned about temperament when your child is 18, the opportunity to learn their temperament a little better. And chances are as soon as you hear these traits for so many of our kids, we're so familiar, like we're experts on our kids. So you're like, oh, that's that. Okay, yep, that's that, that tracks for so and so. And so that temperament holds out. So you're not too late, like the temperament is still there. And I think one of the cool things, I think, if we kind of lean into that repair. When our kids are older, they have that cognitive ability to have those conversations. You know what, for a long time, I have always said, you have to try at least one bite, or for a long time, I've always said, finish your plate, or, you know, whatever it might be that maybe you're learning now isn't okay, that's actually really not so helpful. The great thing about having older kids is you can talk through that with them. And you can acknowledge and say, okay, from here on, I want to do this differently. And I'm sorry, you know, that I was doing this in the past, let's do this together. So I think that's one thing that's beautiful about learning it when our kids are older. What would you say, Lyndi?

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 43:40

Yeah, I think all the practices hold, but maybe being able to then provide an explanation for why you're doing these practices is also a benefit to it, right? I mean, like, oh, you understand that? These things, I maybe shouldn't have restricted you from doing that. Because now you might be more, you know, you might lean the other way and then overeat that or something like that. So I totally understand why you're hurt, you know. You're doing these behaviors as part of who you are, because I reinforced them. So let's talk about how we can work together to do some of these different things. Here's other strategies that might teach you to not help you to behave a different way. Yeah.

Mackenzie Johnson: 44:27

And the other thing we talked about in our temperament workshop, which like, hey, oh, you can take that. But in our temperament workshop, we talk about reframing words. And so we use the term picky eaters because that's what people say, right as picky eaters, but we can reframe that to say selective eaters or intentional eaters. They are in tune with their bodies, right? And so there's different ways we can frame things up as you think about sensitivity and withdrawing. We can frame that up in a different way that's more positive for our kids, to the light we want them to see themselves in.

Mackenzie DeJong: 45:02

So this is just a kind of an aha. But even picky eaters versus I'm just a sensitive eater, like I just can't handle spice things. That's too sticky. That's too slimy, like, yeah. And like acknowledging that, but at the same time being able to be open, even though I'm withdrawing, to giving it another shot.

Mackenzie Johnson: 45:28

And I also think you have the chance to teach. When we recognize a trait, it comes with assets and liabilities. So yeah, a liability or con or a challenge might be, I'm not so interested in trying that or I'm extra sensitive and that sounds yucky to me. Right? That can be a liability, but an asset can be the literature tells us you might be less likely to overeat, right to like, overdo it, because you are selective, right? And so it's like also finding the good within your temperament trait of like, Hey, I've got some assets here to work with, even if it generally has a negative connotation.

Mackenzie DeJong: 46:04

And then I'm like, yeah, but if there's bread available. That's kind of where I felt like okay, but so I think we kind of touched on some of that. So thank you. I mean, feel free to add any other thoughts if there are any, but I think we're getting there.

Mackenzie Johnson: 46:23

Mackenzie just caught up. Mackenzie has an

Mackenzie DeJong: 46:25

No.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 46:25

I think, Mackenzie, we just need

Mackenzie Johnson: 46:25

No.(laughing) Aha. to do like a one on one class. The two of us just talking about your food.

Mackenzie DeJong: 46:34

No, that might be true. You and I might have to have a consultation on this.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 46:41

Don't worry. It'll be a good thing. See, don't be afraid of it. It'll be a good thing.

Mackenzie Johnson: 46:46

Non judgmental observation, Kenz.

Mackenzie DeJong: 46:49

We'll work on it. We'll do that off podcast. Might have to have that conversation.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 46:57

I don't know, people might be interested in hearing that.

Mackenzie DeJong: 47:01

If you're interested, let us know. Maybe we can do a bonus podcast where Lyndi just breaks down all of Mackenzie DeJong's weirdness.

Mackenzie Johnson: 47:10

Oh, I love it. I love it. And she's given us a great segue because as we move into our next few episodes, we do have some that are kind of broken down by the age of kids. So we'll get into what it's like with infants, with kids, teens, etc. And yes, we do have a whole episode coming on selective or picky eating. So more to come. She's really promoting these next coming episodes this season. But for today, we really kind of dug in, we know that temperament is always there. Temperament is an underlying factor that influences our parenting, which practices we choose that's related to food and not to food. But we see how it plays out when it comes to food and our kids, what they eat, how much they eat, and that we have the opportunity to kind of understand that pattern. And that there's all kinds of strategies for us to tap into that Lyndi was sharing with us today to offer that kind of guidance to encourage our kids to be healthy and independent eaters.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 48:09

Yes, yes. So next week, we're going to delve into starting out looking at those different ages and stages of how we feed our kids. So next week, we're actually going to look at feeding and the first 1000 days.

Mackenzie Johnson: 48:23

I can't wait all and I feel like that's where so many people have questions when our kids are so little, we're like this and that and so much changes so fast in how they eat and we're excited to dig into it. So thank you for joining us today on The Science of Parenting podcast. Remember, you can subscribe to our weekly audio podcast on Apple, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. And don't miss the rest of the episodes that are coming this season.

Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt: 48:48

So come along with us as we tackle the ups and downs, the ins and outs, and the research and reality all around The Science of Parenting.

Anthony Santiago: 48:56

The Science of Parenting is hosted by Mackenzie Johnson, produced by Mackenzie DeJong, with research and writing by Barbara Dunn Swanson. Send in questions and comments to parenting@iastate.edu and connect with us on Facebook and Twitter. This institution is an equal opportunity provider. For the full non-discrimination statement or accommodation inquiries go to www.extension.iastate.edu/diversity/ext