The Science of Parenting
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The Science of Parenting
Feeding and Eating with Kids | S.10 Ep.6
As children transition into school, the family lifestyle can shift which means eating can change too! In this episode, you’ll learn about specific developmental changes that impact our kids’ eating habits and what you can do to support healthful eating at this age.
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This institution is an equal opportunity provider. For the full non-discrimination statement or accommodation inquiries, go to www.extension.iastate.edu/diversity/ext
Welcome to The Science of Parenting podcast where we connect you with research based information that fits your family. We'll talk about the realities of being a parent, and our research can help guide our parenting decisions. I'm Mackenzie Johnson, parent of two littles with their own quirks. And I'm a parenting educator.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:And I'm Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt, a Professor of Human Nutrition, guest co-host, and I'm mom to one sweet angel baby and one young spirited eater.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yes, I love how you're mixing it up every week. Love it, especially since the voracious ferocious debacle. You know, yeah.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:But it can be ever changing, some nights he is insatiable, some nights he is spirited.
Mackenzie Johnson:So yes, we love it. So yes, every episode this season, we're here with Lyndi chatting all about kids and food. And today in particular, right? Kind of going to be getting into that. We're going to be building off of last week and we were talking about feeding and the first 1000 days. You might remember hearing all kinds of good stuff from pregnancy to the first year from one to two years old. Lots of good strategies and recommendations for kind of helping establish that groundwork for having a healthy independent eater.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yeah. And this week, we are growing up in age, and we're gonna be talking about preschool and school agers. I hope everyone caught the food pun.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yep, there it is. I know. When you said that earlier, I was like growing? Well, I mean, what would you say for food? What do you do? You grow it. You grow food. That's what you do. Food and children. Oh, yeah. Yes. And I think of this when we were trying to decide like, okay, growing good eaters. I was like, well, they're kids. I don't know, what is this age group, they're children, they're kids, the school agers the, I don't know, just kids.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Just everything going through all the changes that we're going to talk about today, which is miraculous, and also very scary. Yeah.
Mackenzie Johnson:Right. There's just a lot. And so yeah, we're going to be sharing information from ages two all the way up through age eight. And again, a lot of it based on that healthy eating research report we've referenced a few times this season, all kinds of good nuggets in here. But yeah, we are going to be looking across that age span. So you can listen. I mean, you can hopefully the whole episode, you can listen to the whole episode. But it's alright, if you're maybe tuned in to one a little more than the rest because maybe that one's living in your home right now. Yes, so we do think it's important. You've heard me talk about it before, this idea of a developmentalist perspective when it comes to parenting. Well, developmentalist perspective is appropriate when it comes to food, too. And essentially that just means that age and development is as the authors of the textbook that we love, The Handbook of Parenting said, it is a highly relevant justification, aka, yes, we can pay attention to that age and that stage to understand how we can support our kids, how we can interact with them. So just a quick reminder that we're going to keep that perspective of, their age matters. And we're going to remember, as we talk about ages and stages today in this episode, they're averages. Your child may kind of be right on track with one of these, maybe a little bit ahead on one, a little behind in a certain domain. And that is all right, we know that that is influenced by things like temperament, potential developmental delays, environmental factors, all kinds of stuff. So we're talking in generalizations and averages. But if you do have concerns about that, we have a whole season on it. But also feel free to talk with your healthcare professional, they'll be ready and willing to answer those questions for you, too.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yes, yes, perfectly said and it's really great to talk about a series of doctors that put out this healthy eating research report that we keep talking about. So we keep referencing this healthy eating research report, it was put together by an expert panel of pediatricians and health experts. And they continue to remind us throughout this report, that different food parenting practices have different effects at different ages. So one example they give is among children seven and older, structured guidance rulemaking is more effective in preventing unhealthy eating. So we're gonna talk a little bit about why as we talk about the different ages and stages. But one thing about our younger kiddos are six and six and younger, rewarding with verbal praise is more effective in terms of promoting healthy eating and preventing unhealthy eating.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yeah, so that idea of certain strategies, I mean, like with temperament, certain strategies are more effective with certain kids. Certain strategies can be more effective at certain ages. That's like another consideration of what practices we use and what works. And I think that we're going to see why it starts to make more sense that differentiation of for six and younger, that modeling and that positive encouragement versus for older kids why maybe structure. So teasers, stay to the end. Yes, yes. So that development is a really important part of the considerations that we're going to have. Because we do want them to be healthy and independent eaters.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, we do. Absolutely.
Mackenzie Johnson:So we powered through, those are technically our first two, as many of you might know, we usually go through like three or four research citations. We've powered through two already. Go us! But because we want to save lots of time to get into these kinds of developmental domains of these different ages. So you might remember that a developmental domain is basically just a category for a kind of development. So we're going to start with our two to three year olds, right? We're going to be going all the way up through age eight, but starting with our two and three year olds, kind of our young preschool/older toddler that we're going to start with and so we will look at kind of what is happening in this stage of parenting and in this stage of development, right? Not just related to food, but in general, what do we know about kids that are two to three years old?
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah, and then how that applies to their actual eating. So. And I do want to mention that a lot of resources and tools related to these specific age ranges are available if you go to healthyeatingresearch.org. They have very specific recommendations based off of these ages. So go there if you're looking for more detail than you're going to get even today.
Mackenzie Johnson:Oh, absolutely. Yes. Great advice to go find more information. So as we think about our two and three year olds, what are we talking about? Well, as parents during this time, we're usually doing lots of boundary setting. They're getting more mobile and wanting to make more of their own choices. And the, no I do its, or actually, this is really sweet. My son is in the stage. He's like, right about three. And instead of saying, no, I do it, which is what I've heard a lot of kind of toddler preschooler say, I got this. It's confident, right? I got this, mom. Whether it's buckling in a car seat, or getting something himself from the fridge or pantry, I got this. And so we are, we're setting expectations around what things they can do, what are acceptable choices, what's acceptable behavior. We also know that with that comes, sometimes some feistiness, right? We're starting to get more resistance for things that we used to just kind of do for them, and things like that. So that's kind of what's happening in the midst of all this development that we're going to talk about.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah. So first, we're going to talk about how these feisty young youngsters. I sounded like an old man there.
Mackenzie Johnson:Youngsters, there it was. Kids these days.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Two to three year olds these days. Okay. So specifically, when we think about their motor skills at this age, which, of course, motor skills play a very important part in our eating and feeding ourselves. So between the ages of two and three years old, children can eat without assistance.
Mackenzie Johnson:To an extent.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:To an extent, yes. They can use a spoon to scoop food and a fork to stab food. So they can successfully, you know, do that. But it's another thought if they can actually get it into their mouths, or if it will go all over the floor. But yes, they are trying.
Mackenzie Johnson:Similarly to going all over the floor, kids at this age can be starting to use, I mean, depending on when you've started as a parent, but getting more skillful with an open cup. So maybe transitioning out of the sippy cup stage, or maybe you never were using one at all, but they're getting a little more skilled and coordinated at that. And I remember this very specifically, they can use straws more effectively. We went from the baby bird dropper version of the straw, right? You get some water in your straw and drop it. The you can use my straw now. Glorious, we love that.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yeah. Yeah, and I think probably a lot of parents are aware, but you can get all different sorts of age appropriate utensils for two or three year olds, younger than two to three year olds, when they just start eating. So those might be really great for your kids. Your kid might use them. It might actually help them do a better job of eating, getting the food in their mouth and even enjoying food. But it might not help them at all, they might want to just use their hands. And at this age, it might still be appropriate to do so. So be flexible and understanding at this age. And you might need to also try out different tools.
Mackenzie Johnson:Oh, absolutely. And it's great to know the options, right? Like, you might not need that, your spirited eater might just go for it. Oh, yeah. But it's also possible like okay, if we're needing some support, there might be tools out there that could help us with that.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yes. And then lastly in this motor skills, I just want to mention that children at this age are probably going to be able to chew a little bit better. They're going to have their molars for better for worse. So they might say, you know, at this point, you can try introducing different textured foods like raw vegetables and meat. So this might be a relief for some parents. I know for me having to always roast or steam or anything my child's vegetables, it'll be nice when I can just offer them the raw vegetable.
Mackenzie Johnson:Oh, no prep required.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes and not be so scared of watching them eat.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yes. So we know that their physical development, right, what they're able to do with their body impacts how they physically eat and what they eat. But what about cognitive, right, we're kind of moving into this area. So their brain and the types of things they understand, and how that relates to food. In particular, kids of this age, they're starting to understand the concept of counting. And yeah, it probably won't be in the full sense of I understand that this is one and this is nine. But they can understand the simplistic concept of like, I want two have that, right? I would like two grapes, I would like two carrots. I want another one. Right. And so that idea of one versus two, and that two is more. So yeah, might not be full on counting at this age. But getting kind of the sense of I could ask for another one.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yes. Yeah. So it's also at this age that this might be important that the children also can start to bargain with us. Which is wonderful, right?
Mackenzie Johnson:It's an advanced cognitive skill.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:It's adorable, I think, to a degree, right? I'm saying that as someone who does not have this aged child right now. But this is also, you know, an opportunity to think again about that division of responsibility. You know, we are the ones who provide the food. We are the ones who decide when, where and what. And they get to decide whether or not they eat it. So if they're bargaining with you, to, you know, bring them their favorite food at the table. That's when you say, well, this is what I provide, you know, like, again, have some fixed options offer. Yes, two to three options. But watch out for that bargaining and how you're responding to it. So you're not leaning too far into that indulgent.
Mackenzie Johnson:Absolutely. Yeah. It is sweet. When you're getting a new cognitive skill, but also like a here we go. And here we are, right? Buckle up. Yeah, yes. And then another important domain to think about in our kids' development, particularly at this age when so much is happening, is language. What they understand and what they communicate, right, because we do provide the food, right, the division of responsibility, their language, and their ability to communicate is really important when it comes to eating and feeding. And so one thing that's cool about their language at this age is they're starting to understand two part directions. Which means that prior to this age, they probably weren't. Right? And so that can be like, oh, do I have an expectation gap? Am I expecting too much? So around ages two to three, that they can start to have directions, like, go get in your chair and eat your lunch? Right? That's a two part direction. And so they're getting better at being able to understand and implement those types of things.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yes. And in addition to that, the language, they also are hearing your language so they can discern the effect and meaning based on the speaker's tone of voice. So, you know, watch what you're saying, if you're saying in a more stern or demanding voice, eat that cracker versus inviting, you know, eat your cracker. That's something to be again, when I think about how, you know, control and those kinds of things are affecting the way they're eating. More controlling, you know, eat your crackers versus a more inviting eat your crackers would be positive reinforcement.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yeah, they're picking up on that tone now. They're picking up on it. The other thing that I think is really interesting about the language at this age that they talked about, was that they can start to have more phrases and sentences, and more conversational turns, which essentially is like, back and forth, right. I say this, they said that, I say this, which goes with that bargaining. But also that they can explain a little bit more. Whereas when they were infants or young toddlers, they might just say, like, cookie or wah wah, or whatever food it was, that was a favorite that they wanted, they might just say one word, and now they can use phrases like, I want that, right? Like I want water, or can I have a drink as they get older? And so thinking about how they're even communicating about that improves, of course, with age.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yeah. And I think that it's also worth saying at this point, as these language skills develop, if you haven't already, this is a great time to start implementing those family meals. Because we are seeing all this language development and that is an opportunity to help not only model the appropriate food to eat but also have that really wonderful time to have that social aspect, that conversation too, and build their language skills.
Mackenzie Johnson:Absolutely. And oh my gosh, what a beautiful segue because the last domain we're gonna look at is social emotional.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:I didn't do that on purpose.
Mackenzie Johnson:I know. You built it right in accidentally. But yeah, as we think about social emotional is really about how our kids relate to us, right, the people around them and that emotional component of understanding themselves and regulating themselves. And so a big part of what's happening in this two to three year old age range, is that they're getting very interested in what other people do. They're starting to understand they're their own person, which means the modeling that we offer, right? Like eating family meals, right, what types of foods we eat, and that we are kind of, do what we say, and do what we hopefully are also doing. Because that modeling is an important part, they're really paying attention to that.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, and in addition to that, for the most part, kids this age like routines. They still like routines, and they might get upset when their routines are disrupted. So it's good at this age, again, to continue to have those boundaries continue. I mean, it's going to be important to continue to have that structure. But, you know, this is a time where it is good to continue to have and set those boundaries.
Mackenzie Johnson:And I often say around routines, you know, we tend to be a family that I like to protect our routine. I want to kind of stay home. I enjoy, like novelty and excitement. But yeah, in terms of taking my kids on a big trip. No, they value their routine more than they value, right. They're like as excited about the park down the street at this age, as they would be about some big elaborate park, for the most part. And so, yeah, that protection of routine is age appropriate. And then another one that's kind of related to that concept of self. They're starting to understand at this age that they could maybe think or believe something different than you do. So it might be like, oh, well, you might think that soup is delicious, but I do not. Or yeah, mom loves this tortellini, but I do not. We talked about this phrase all the time in our house, part of it being sibling disagreement at this age. But my child who's right about three can now use the phrase, I disagree. So when they disagree about something, so sometimes it is used at the dinner table like, oh, this is delicious, or I think the flavors are good or, I love this. I disagree. I'm like, well, that's tactful of you at least.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:That is tactful. Yes. Yeah. And I mean, you can tell me if I'm wrong here, because I think you're more of an expert on developmental, but maybe, you know, the ability to be able to express their differences is going to encourage them or or maybe they are going to be more apt to then, whether or not they disagree, maybe offer that area of disagreement just to disagree.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yep, yep, that is totally normal of like, yeah, I have my own thought. It's like when my toddler would tell me no. Do you want this? No. And then would accept it. Right? Because that's like, I have an opinion. I can influence and we talked about secondary and tertiary reactions, whatever. But I can influence other things. Like I say no and then you don't give it to me. How crazy! So they're experimenting with that. And so yeah, sometimes it's like the, I disagree. Like, I don't think this is delicious. Again, that doesn't mean I will never like this for the rest of my life. Repeated exposure. And it might not even mean they really don't like it at this age. Maybe they don't like it today. But yeah, there's always room for, not negotiation. There's always room to re-expose.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Re-expose, yeah, and I appreciate that. Because this is the age in when you read well, I was about to say in the literature, but in real life, because let's be real, I mean, real life. But this is the age where you do tend to see a lot of picky eaters or the emergence of picky eating. So again, repeated exposures and understand that it is just a part of the development that your kid might be becoming picky. And I'm saying this and reassuring myself this as I will be approaching this age. I mean, not me approaching this age, my child approaching this age.
Mackenzie Johnson:You are well past. You did so good, Lyndi. You made it. Oh, yeah, that is a part of them expressing themselves, understanding their own opinion, like it's developmentally appropriate for them to get a little more selective, instead of just, yeah, whenever you say. No, I have an opinion, I can express it. So very appropriate for a two to three year old. So thinking about everything we just said, right? We covered four domains. But thinking about two to three year olds and your knowledge on this and food, what kind of reflections or advice would you say about this age?
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Oh, well, I mean, is it going to be fair to say be flexible, but set boundaries? Yeah, both. Yeah. But you know, pulling back from our conversation about different feeding styles, the authoritative type of feeding style, being responsive, so being able to set that structure but then also let them explore and still understand just completely the division of responsibility coming back again.
Mackenzie Johnson:Absolutely. And, you know, I think of narrowing that down. We talk about this with all toddlers and young preschoolers, but especially when it comes to food. Offering choices that we're okay with, right? Like, if I'm going to offer would you like this or that, right? This cup or that cup is like the classic example. We give him a choice. You know, but would you like a little or a lot? Would you like one or two? You know, would you like this? I mean, we will even do warmed up. Would you like this warmed up? You know, and so thinking about where they can exert that opinion and exert that independence, while still being empowered. They can have autonomy and structure. That's where they both are. And so yeah, offering that choice to, yes, you have an opinion, it's allowed. We don't have to fight every opinion. Right?
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah. I love that. And I'm sure the child will love that, too. Yeah.
Mackenzie Johnson:Fingers crossed, right? They're responding to those choices. All right, and then that's gonna move us into this kind of four and five year old stage. So we're moving on up. And what do we know about this stage of kids and our stage of parenting? With our four and five year olds, kind of our older preschooler, kindergartenish age. They're starting to have more experiences out of the home, right? Whether they're going to preschool or kindergarten, right, they are going to school or childcare. And because they're spending more time outside, and they're kind of just getting started, there's some curiosity. You know, they might be in different situations, maybe they're starting a little extracurricular activity, or, you know, maybe they're doing after school care instead of a full time childcare. And so there's just some shifts in what's happening in the world around them. And yeah, even the shift from preschool to kindergarten. And so because that's happening around them, we just see them getting a little more curious. And we're gonna see that in these different stages, too.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yes. So again, we're gonna go through the different kinds of dimensions of development here. So starting with motor, this is very exciting. I think this is very exciting. But between ages four and five, this is when children can spread and cut with a knife. So they're starting to develop more of those motor skills. And then they can also drink from an open mouth cup without assistance. And this, it says, per the report without spilling. I'm not sure how realistic this is.
Mackenzie Johnson:Pretty effectively, how about.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, pretty effectively.
Mackenzie Johnson:They're pretty good.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:They're distracted by something else going on.
Mackenzie Johnson:It's always the dog.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:It's always, yeah, I was gonna say dog. I was just like I've said dog so many times.
Mackenzie Johnson:Maybe it is a different pet or an animal out the window. Yeah. Yes. So yeah, those motor skills are still coming into play. They can do more things because of them. Thinking about cognitive. By four years of age, the way that they're thinking and understanding, they're starting to understand the difference between something is the same or different. So you might hear phrases like, that's different than the one we use at school, right? Or I like the peanut butter with the red lid. Right? They're starting to notice those things, and having a stronger understanding of those differences, which might mean being more selective about them.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah, yeah. And again, having that food environment that you want from an early stage is going to be really helpful when it comes to this, right, so that they're familiar with those things. So if they don't want different, you have the same.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yes, yes. Yes, and they're beginning to understand a little bit more about time structure here, too, which I think is like, okay, we're gonna hear this, too, in case we have younger kids, which means they maybe didn't have such a solid understanding of time before this age. So when we said you can have this in an hour or you can have it tomorrow, now they get that a little more, which also, I will say from experience, comes with some accountability. How often my child of this age says, you said, you said mom. You are correct. You're so smart. Yeah. Oh, you remembered, busted. Oh, yeah. So they're learning a lot of things that time. And now that can really come into play with food. And then another cognitive one being, they're getting more aware of the rules and expectations, right? At two to three, they're still kind of learning what they are. By four to five, they're a little more established. But because they're feeling, I mean, because they're feeling pretty smart, they are starting to test boundaries and might do more arguing with you about what's offered. Yes, I can attest to this one, too. Right. My daughter does not want me to serve the tortellini. And so there's a little more argument but still being prepared. We can still use those structure practices, we can still use the division of responsibility, but knowing it's not your child being ungrateful, not being difficult. It's a developmentally appropriate thing for them to kind of argue with you a little bit about food at this age.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:At this age, and likely, maybe we'll talk about this again when they're teenagers. I don't know.
Mackenzie Johnson:It's coming back around. Yes.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Okay. So moving into language, by age four, children know names or food groups or categories. So, you know, apples and oranges are both fruit. They can also express themselves using words like because or if, I don't want to eat that food because it has spots on it. And lastly, I feel like they ask more questions like, why, why do I need to eat this? You know, those types of things. And I think all of this to me, is just an opportunity to educate them on the whys. And the this has spots on it because that's the way it was grown, and then maybe showing them that it was, you know, where it was grown, or how it was grown, those kinds of things. So it's a rich, rich opportunity for exploring food in a new way.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yes, because they can understand and express all that now. Yeah, prime opportunity. And I also think that language comes in in the way they can express themselves, you know, in a more sophisticated way, right? They're having kind of near conversations. I mean, kind of going back to the arguing they can do because cognitively, language wise, right, they can start to negotiate a little bit more. They can also start to say, like, they understand the abstract concept. Like, this one I hear a lot in my house, the passive approach to food. Expressing it like, that smells good. Instead of can I have one, right. It's not a manipulation in terms of like, they're exploring, right? They're exploring the interpersonal communication. And yeah, I hear the like, oh, well, I noticed this was in the fridge, Mom. Not can I have that? But like, oh, I noticed. Right. And so that's some of that subtlety, they're starting to get better at as well as the negotiations. Yes, yes. All right. And then our last domain here, thinking about our four and five year olds, is related to this social emotional, right?
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yeah. So thinking about some of the social things that happened about age four, children may begin to feel more generous and share food with friends. And they might also become because of this, more increasingly influenced by their peers' behavior. So just thinking about, you know, what choices they have, what choices their friends have, and how they're modeling those for each other.
Mackenzie Johnson:Absolutely. And another thing that's interesting about their development here, it's kind of a mix of cognitive and emotional, but they still don't really at this age, can't really tell the difference between real and make believe, which a lot of times we talk about in reference to screentime and fantasy. But in terms of food, this can mean that they're particularly vulnerable to food advertising, right? Let's say there's like a favorite character in our house. It's the string cheese, the string cheese package. It's the fight for the character one, right. But because they don't necessarily, it's part of that, they don't have that full understanding. But I have seen this really nifty hack. I wish I could tell you where it came from, I don't know. But bringing character stickers to the store, and like putting them on the foods you're already planning to buy like, look, this has your favorite character on the banana. This is their favorite banana.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:I love that idea, using food marketing in a positive way. Yeah, right.
Mackenzie Johnson:Right. Like, oh, look at this exciting choice. But that was a nifty hack, because I absolutely see that we have like a can of soup that has a favorite character that a grandparent lovingly purchased for one of my kids. Because they're like, oh, they wanted this at the store so bad. I'm like, they don't know what that is. They saw their favorite character on it.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah. Yeah. And I think bringing this full circle is just another reminder to parents out there that there are so many things that influence what our kiddos eat. So, you know, you take that and use it with okay, well, this is why they keep asking for this food at this age is because there's that character on it.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yep. Yep. And whether that's to our health or to our detriment, right.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yes.
Mackenzie Johnson:Another kind of important thing that's happening in this age group, is the idea of truth versus lie. They're getting a little bit better, you know, maybe not at outright deceit, but maybe kind of like hiding the truth. Right, like, yeah, yeah, sure. I did that. I ate that. And it's like in their pocket. Or sometimes, I feel like I've more often heard the reverse of like, I didn't eat that. I don't know where that was. I think I told you guys the story, everybody, listeners, you guys, everybody out there, about the raw sugar. One morning my children were eating raw sugar for breakfast. It's a risk I take by letting them be in charge of their breakfast. But oh, yeah, nobody did that. Weirdly, everybody in our house said, no, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. We're getting better at that at this age of kind of like, I know something you don't so I could deceive you a little.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah. Well, and they also don't want to make you mad, which is sweet.
Mackenzie Johnson:So thinking about this age of these four and five year olds, what kind of reflections and advice would you give, Lyndi?
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Well, I think all of these are different dimensions, all these different developmental milestones, point me to that this is such a rich stage or rich opportunity to engage them in learning about food, learning how to cook, learning how to prepare, learning how to grow, and talking to them about why food is the way it is, or what's good about food, what's not good about food. Yeah, they want to please you and they also want to learn.
Mackenzie Johnson:Absolutely. Mine kind of builds off of that. And because they're learning so much, they're starting alongside getting more kind of independence, not outright in charge of everything that they do, right or doing it totally without you. But then they can take in some of that knowledge and turn it into some action. Right, like, I can make a choice because I understand carrots are good for my eyes, right? I learned that. I also think Iowa State Extension has, and a lot of different states have, a pick a better snack program that sometimes will come into a school district. They learn about a specific food. They get to try it and learn about how it grows and things like that. And, you know, I think that's a great example. This is a prime age for that. They can take in some of that information. And then the other thing, I think, is really powerful at this age is that modeling, right? Spending that time together, they're soaking up what we're doing. And we're going to learn the next stage, that they're starting to soak up more from other people. So at this stage, I think modeling is really powerful. So in that next stage, I mean, speaking of definitely built my own segue there. Yeah, thank you. For our five to eight year olds, so a little bit older, definitely kind of that school age and thinking about what we know about this age. In season five, you might remember us saying something along the lines of, this is the most active stage of life. Kids at this age are busy, they are getting involved in activities, they're having school, they're spending more time with their friends, right? Like my daughter is starting to play with the kids across the street. And you know, and they're really starting to seem more like big kids. Getting bigger, much more. They make choices that we're not always a part of, the world outside and around us.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah, and I mean, going to what the different skills or dimensions, motor. These kids are starting to use fork and knife together to cut food and are able to use cutlery without being too messy, we hope. Again, being able to be even more independent eaters and eat a different variety of food.
Mackenzie Johnson:They're making their own PB and J's now.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Oh, my goodness, you're on it.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yes. Oh, and thinking about cognitively what they understand, what they're doing, that can impact food. We said at four and five, they were kind of naming categories and understanding that categories and food groups might exist. Well, now they might be able to do that categorizing, right, like this food is a vegetable, this food is a fruit, this food has lots of protein, right? So they can use those categories to make decisions. But also, I think this is cool, they can start to kind of imagine a hypothetical, like what would happen if, and then they can get to the consequence of it. Right? So as we think about choices they make, what would happen if I left the oven on, right? Or if I left this on the stove too long? What would happen if I eat this without asking? What would happen if I eat this entire container of parade candy? Right, they can start to think a little bit more about the consequence of a potential situation which they couldn't really do before. So I think that's really powerful.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:It is, yeah. And again, another opportunity to talk to your kids about, well, what are the consequences if I, you know, eat too much of this thing that maybe the consequence is, my stomach will hurt after it.
Mackenzie Johnson:Or what if I never eat it? Like what would happen if I never ate a vegetable? Right? My body couldn't grow as strong and I'd be missing vitamins. Right? They can think through some of that a little more. Yeah, or my mom and my parents might be sad. Yes.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes. Yeah. So then moving to language. Between ages five and eight, our children develop the ability to read and therefore the ability to take in more information about food. So this can be, you know, also again, a really positive sort of thing and opportunity for them to read more about the way things grow, the way food gets to you, all of that. It also can lead to challenges. Say you go out to eat, and now they can fully read everything that's on the menu, where before you went out to eat and you said, well, here are your options.
Mackenzie Johnson:And I'm not going to give you the first three, because I don't want you to have them. Yes, exactly.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:So this would be, as a parent, again that opportunity to provide that structure and those boundaries, and say, okay, well, you can read this. These are your options, but maybe our family, we're going to pick through these two options or something like that.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yeah, these are the choices that you have. And I also think about, you know, my daughter is in this age of kind of learning to read. The opportunity to take in some nonfiction, and yeah, like food topics, you know. I think we have a book, we have a book about the garden and what can grow there. And so as they take in that information, it can be even enjoyable reading, or that can be a way they're practicing their reading skills is through taking in some positive food information. Yes. And then our last domain here of social emotional. One of the things that we know is that their peers, their friends are getting more and more important, hence the playing with the neighbor kids, right? But even as we think about eating school lunch with the kids next to them. And so we know that their peers or their friends are starting to have more influence. And that can be a positive thing in some ways, right? They see a friend trying new foods, or they have lots of vegetables for lunch, or they always eat that first. Right, there can be positive things and some kind of drawbacks. But our friends are starting to become very important and have an influence on our eating behavior.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yes. And maybe your child would be that child that's providing the positive modeling to the other children.
Mackenzie Johnson:We love that, too.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:So children this age also tend to test boundaries. But they are also generally still eager to please and begin to experience embarrassment. So say your child sneaks a cookie, they might be embarrassed if you find out. Again, kind of pushing those boundaries and feeling the consequences of them.
Mackenzie Johnson:And something else we know about this age is, you know, we've talked about it, I can't remember which episode now. But that at this age, they can lie. They're more apt to lie to get out of trouble, because they do want to please you, which means they will choose to lie so that you're not mad at them. Right. Yeah. And so yeah, that can happen around food, too. And like food sneakiness, and things like that. And so keeping that in mind.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah, I think again, I think you keyed it in there. This is why we don't restrict food, right? We don't want kids to feel like they have to sneak it around us or have to be embarrassed about eating something specific.
Mackenzie Johnson:Absolutely. Because they are at this age, can feel embarrassed if we are practicing restriction or shaming around food. This can have a really powerful impact, because they can experience embarrassment for sure now. But another thing, kind of on a lighter note, that kids are kind of at this stage starting to be able to disguise an emotion a little more. You might be like, okay, why does that matter for food? One of the examples in the report was like, they might pretend to like the dinner that is offered at a friend's house. And I'm like, that's great news for me trying to teach my child that you can now pretend like, oh, thank you. This is delicious. Like, okay, there's the lying. White lie. Like, we don't have to. But, yeah, they can now distinguish some of their emotions, which is cool.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:That is yeah, that's really fascinating. And also, again, scary to a degree.
Mackenzie Johnson:Every stage, right? Lyndi is like, oh, my gosh, what are they teaching? But so in thinking about this kind of school-ager, middle childhood age, and food, what kind of reflections and advice do you have for us, Lyndi?
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Going back to what we talked about at the very beginning of this episode, this is around the age where we start to see it be even more important to really kind of set some more rules and, you know, keep a little bit more control of things. Not controlling to the degree where you're restricting, but also, we're providing that really positive structure. Because again, they're going to be maybe more influenced by their peers at school or going out and being able to identify different foods and things like that. So when you bring them back home, having that positive structure, that positive food environment is going to be a really beneficial thing for kids at this age.
Mackenzie Johnson:Absolutely. And I really wanted to use the term home base that you're describing. You're like, yeah, at home this is how it works. And I'm like, yeah, home base. There's security, there's structure, there's flexibility. Yeah. Love that. And the one that came to mind for me actually tapping into kind of parenting content, we talk a lot about middle childhood as a time for parents when we're in an interpretive stage with our kids. Because they're experiencing more of the world without us, when they essentially come home or when they come back to us, they have questions. They have things they noticed. They have things they picked up on. And so I think as that relates to food, right, they notice that so and so might eat this a lot. Or it can be things like, one of my friends in my class brings food that we don't eat at home. And it's like, yes, this person might be of a different culture and different kinds of food. It could be the nutrition information they heard the PE teacher talking about. It could be there's all this information. And I think that's one of the things at this age, because their peers are important and because they're in other environments, they're getting information from a lot of different places now. And so I think we get to have a really cool role of helping them interpret whether that's nutrition information, eating habits, helpful body movement, we get to help them interpret that, which I think is kind of cool.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah. And maybe learn from them.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yeah, yeah, they might be teaching us stuff they learned at school, that's for sure. Yeah. Awesome. So having moved through these kinds of stages of growing good eaters, from the ages of two to eight, all kinds of good stuff here from that healthy eating research report. But now, it is time for us to get quizzed from Mackenzie DeJong, our podcast producer, is gonna come and ask us a question. Oh, yeah, she looks giddy to ask. I'm nervous. Oh, what do you got for us?
Mackenzie DeJong:Oh, goodness. So as I was listening, there was a little bit that I was like, oh, man, I think maybe they answered my question. But I'm going to flip the switch. So you talk a lot about incorporating foods into different things. I'm going to flip the switch. And we're going to talk about learning opportunities and learning activities, and areas where we can incorporate different types of learning or categories, I would say, into food and the kitchen. I know one of these categories, I have five categories listed and there's probably more, but I think Mackenzie is gonna have a few answers up her sleeve.
Mackenzie Johnson:Okay, I'm ready. I know where this is
Mackenzie DeJong:Think about, how can you incorporate these - headed, I think. and I'll start with the easy one for you but then we can get move on from there - how can you incorporate these areas into food to either make it maybe more fun, or just incorporate and bring learning? Different topics, kind of, I guess, I don't know the right way to say it, but like, you know, learning multiple things at the same time. So the first category, especially if Mackenzie's interest is literacy, how can we incorporate that to food?
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Oh, well, I would love to talk about this because I just finished taking an Extension outreach course called Small Talk and they did a great job of talking about how we can use any type of mealtime, kitchen, food activities as a way to talk with your child. But then we talked a lot about how we can use it for math talk. And I think we referenced this as we talked about, well, now, you know, at that developmental stage, they can count to two or they can count two. So one, two, here's, you know, two slices of bread or something like that. I'm not gonna give my child two slices of bread. But you know, maybe, voracious. Yeah. So yeah. So that's, that is my experience as far. But I'm sure Mackenzie has thoughts on that as well.
Mackenzie Johnson:I am fortunate that I get to help lead a program specifically related to how we can implement literacy, reading, and language into our day. And yeah, of course, in the kitchen. And yeah, so thinking, I mean, reading books around food, around meals, is a great opportunity. Reading recipes together. And when our kids are little, and they don't read yet, even things like finding picture recipes of like, okay, first we add water, then we add, right? So doing those types of activities, things that they can kind of lead the way on. There's all kinds of fun stuff. You can kind of flip it the other way. And some of the reading activities you do could be related to food, right? Or even sorting or labeling, describing, that's another really great one. It's like, oh, I'm noticing this orange is kind of bumpy. It's kind of squishy. The smell, right, and so even just noticing those things are great for their language and literacy development.
Mackenzie DeJong:Alright, so the next category, Lyndi already alluded to, is math.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah, math. Yes. Sorry. I jumped the
Mackenzie Johnson:I knew it. gun on the math. I just got so excited. But yeah, I think yes, math, you can do all those things when you're talking about even preparing food, you know. I'm going to cut or I'm going to chop this one spear of asparagus. I'm doing a really bad job describing, using these descriptions. But yeah, math talk is even more than that. It's like, I'm going to put these this, these noodles into the pot. They are going to go into the pot. So, yeah, anything just describing what you're doing when you're in the kitchen in terms of the placement, that kind of thing as well.
Mackenzie DeJong:One thing I did hear from what you said is you're going to chop one. And then we could talk about fractions, right?
Mackenzie Johnson:Or division.
Mackenzie DeJong:Yeah!
Mackenzie Johnson:Yeah, depending on what type of math, right? Because an eight year old math is very different than a three year old math. Yeah. But even, we need to add more or less. We need to add a big cup or a little cup. That's the kind of terminology that'd be appropriate for a younger kid. Yeah, or a half a cup for our kids that have more of an understanding of fractions, you know, and even shapes. Shapes are an important part. This is a cylinder and, you know, looking at the types of things that are in your kitchen, what shapes do we see? And so thinking about all those different things, there's lots of different math concepts that are in there. Counting is a good one. And yeah, subtracting, adding. And I also think food is like the classic example. Right? I think of like pie for fractions, but pizza for fractions. There's all kinds of good stuff. Yes, um, science.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Science? Well, I think Mackenzie already mentioned some of these but you know, talking about things that are hot or things that are cold or this is boiling or what happens if you put oil and vinegar together. And that's a type of a reaction because one thing's hydrophobic. I mean, I don't know that you need that much detail, but I love it. There's so many opportunities, just the way food mixes and yeah. And then I think science too, I think to take them out to the garden and talk about the science of why things grow.
Mackenzie Johnson:Oh, absolutely. And nutrition. Nutrition is science. Yes.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Thank you. Yeah.
Mackenzie Johnson:I just want to make sure you didn't miss it. Yeah. Everything when it comes to food, right, that's science. And yeah, the skills of measuring and scooping, and all that stuff, that's science. And so yeah, sometimes I think with our older kids, it can work great to do those kinds of experiments and things like that. But sometimes a science skill is as simple as measuring. It is as simple as scooping and that those are also skills and yeah, all nutrition talk.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:All nutrition talk. Yeah, yep.
Mackenzie DeJong:All right. I said I had five, but I'm going to just stick to four for time's sake. The last is nature.
Mackenzie Johnson:Okay, you've been really good at jumping to the next category she's about to say, Lyndi. You are anticipating a whole bunch.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah. But I mean, again, going back to nature, gardening, taking your kids to the farmers market, having them explore those kinds of things is not only beneficial to having them learn about nature, but it's really beneficial to be like, oh, well, that's where that comes from, you know, that then maybe I'm more likely to eat it. Or, you know, I saw that it was grown here. Or I went and helped pick it and I'm going to eat it because I was a part of that process.
Mackenzie Johnson:Oh, yeah. Well, and even I think, the understanding, I mean, in addition, you know, we talk a lot about produce but you know, agriculture and meat and all those things. Iowa has lots of them. So there's lots of opportunities too to understand local foods, or when you go to the farmers market, meeting the people. Like this person grew this food. And so there's a lot of opportunities, of course, gardening is a great opportunity to engage with nature. But yeah, like, understanding food systems and who was a farmer and what they do. And yeah, there's just great opportunities to food and nature. I mean, obviously, they grow and go hand in.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah.
Mackenzie DeJong:All right. I'll let you off with that. But I just thought it'd be cool to kind of flip the switch and see how can we make it maybe more interesting too if people were like, okay, but how do I incorporate food into things?
Mackenzie Johnson:Oh, yeah. Awesome. Thanks for that, Kenz.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yeah, thank you. Great question.
Mackenzie Johnson:I'll say that's a fun one. And yeah, very appropriate because in this age, our kids are starting to have subjects. You know, they have social studies. They have a nature stem or they have reading, so very appropriate type of question for this age. So it has, it's been fun to dig into these kinds of domains and realizing, you know, we talked so much about development in other seasons, but the skills our kids have, the things that they understand, the things that they can do, also impact how they eat and what strategies make the most sense to implement with them. So it's all good news here in growing good eaters. Lots of great strategies and information. And more coming next week, right?
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:Yes, yes. Next week. We're going to look, again we're growing, at teens and food.
Mackenzie Johnson:Yeah, still talking about the food. Don't worry, season 10 is all about food. But yes, thinking about our teens and what that's going to mean. So thanks for joining us today on The Science of Parenting podcast. Don't forget that you can watch our video each week on our social media. You can find us at scienceofparents, or go to scienceofparenting.org.
Lyndi Buckingham-Schutt:So come along with us as we tackle the ups and downs, the ins and outs, and the research and reality all along The Science of Parenting.
Anthony Santiago:The Science of Parenting is hosted by Mackenzie Johnson, produced by Mackenzie DeJong, with research and writing by Barbara Dunn Swanson. Send in questions and comments to parenting@iastate.edu and connect with us on Facebook and Twitter. This institution is an equal opportunity provider. For the full non-discrimination statement or accommodation inquiries, go to www.extension.iastate.edu/diversity/ext